Alan Kay, a pioneer of computing, contends that the true computer revolution, envisioned as a tool for augmenting human intellect, was largely missed due to commercialization, which prioritized convenience and distraction over deeper humanistic goals. Anjan Katta, founder of Daylight Computer, echoes this sentiment, driven by his own experience of modern computers hindering productivity and well-being. Both guests emphasize the crucial distinction between "intelligence" and "wisdom" in the context of AI, advocating for systems that cultivate the latter. They draw historical parallels with the printing press, illustrating how new media can profoundly shape human thought and societal discourse. Daylight Computer is presented as a "second shot" at personal computing, designed with thoughtful constraints to encourage deep thinking, reading, and writing, aiming to help users access their "prefrontal cortex" rather than their "lizard brain" in an increasingly complex and interconnected world.
Alan Kay highlights that wisdom, not just intelligence, is the crucial factor for beneficial computing and AI systems.
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Alan Kay believes the true computer revolution, as envisioned by early pioneers interested in personal computing, never fully materialized; instead, commercialization led to inventions that missed the deeper humanistic vision.
The outcome of this commercialization, nearly three decades later, is largely unfortunate, leading to naive and dangerous public reactions to computing.
McLuhan's Media Theories and Predictions
Early computer scientists in the 1960s were influenced by Marshall McLuhan's theories on new media.
New media tend to absorb previous media and alter societal norms and psychological effects.
McLuhan predicted that television would make the world feel simultaneously small and large, creating a "global village" where many would feel a loss of identity and connection, leading to conflict.
He also foresaw content shortening to resemble television commercials, indicating that media are shaped by those with the most money and influence.
Missed Educational Opportunities
Alan Kay reflects that more time should have been allocated to educating the public and establishments about the profound changes computing would bring.
The lack of proper education led to a naive and dangerous public understanding of computers, far beyond the initial concerns.
Personal Experience of Computing's Shortcomings
Anjan Katta's motivation for building Daylight Computer stems from his personal frustration with modern computers.
Despite increased hardware power and software sophistication, he found himself less productive, feeling worse, and struggling to retain information due to constant distractions and "lizard brain" behavior.
The Power and Impact of Writing and Printing [11:45]
The "Paleolithic Cave" Analogy for Current Interaction
Current digital interactions often resemble ancient oral traditions, primarily focused on auditory and visual consumption rather than the deeper engagement fostered by writing.
The shift from oral traditions to writing allowed for the expansion of retrievable knowledge beyond immediate memory.
Writing as a Tool for Cognitive Expansion
Plato, through Socrates in "Phaedrus," ironically criticized writing for potentially diminishing memorization, but the true power of writing is its ability to expand the scope of what is worth remembering.
Writing, like the invention of the car, is a prosthetic that frees up cognitive resources for other forms of learning and thought.
The Printing Press as an Amplifier of Thought
The printing press, though not initiating the Renaissance, acted as a powerful amplifier of ideas due to its ability to cheaply and widely distribute information.
Gutenberg's innovation: His breakthrough was not just printing, but the industrial-scale creation of movable metal type using punches, allowing for rapid reproduction of letters.
Alan Kay explains Gutenberg's innovation: industrial-scale creation of movable metal type using punches, not just printing.
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Aldus Manutius and the standardization of books: Around 70 years after Gutenberg, Aldus and Erasmus introduced pagination (page numbers) to books.
This was inspired by the Jewish culture's Talmud, which used page numbers for complex, hypertext-like commentaries.
Pagination enabled much longer, more complex arguments by providing a stable reference point for discourse across multiple copies of a text.
Alan Kay demonstrates the pre-pagination method of sequencing books, where the next two words were printed at the bottom of the previous page.
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Facilitating deeper arguments and scientific discourse: The widespread availability of standardized texts through printing allowed for the evolution of deeper and more sustained arguments in politics, governance, and science (e.g., the Royal Society).
Defining a "Magical Medium" for Human Potential [24:53]
Computers as Meta-Mediums
Anjan Katta sees computers as "magical mediums" or "meta-mediums," capable of being more than just tools for messaging, email, or basic tasks.
He critiques modern computing, especially as presented in commercial advertisements, for caricaturing this magical potential, making authoring and creative uses inaccessible to most.
Accessing the Prefrontal Cortex (Higher Self)
For Anjan, the primary goal of computing should be to help individuals access their prefrontal cortex – the "higher version of yourself" – rather than succumbing to "lizard brain" impulses like distraction and impulsive consumption.
Anjan Katta explains how ideal computing should help users access their prefrontal cortex, promoting higher thought over 'lizard brain' impulses.
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Three Expansions of Human Being
Anjan's vision for computing aligns with understanding human evolution and potential, based on psychologist Jerome Bruner's "Man: A Course of Study" curriculum.
Moving beyond genetic predispositions and "lizard brain" dominance to access higher cognitive functions.
Transitioning from a socially reduced version of self to a holistic individual, embracing full capacities.
Achieving self-actualization by leveraging unique capabilities, reaching the "top of Maslow's hierarchy."
He believes a powerful medium can facilitate these three expansions of human potential.
Early Personal Computing Ideals and Moore's Law [29:00]
Personal Computing before PCs
The concept of "personal computing" existed in the mid-1960s before the widespread availability of personal computers, using terminals connected to time-sharing systems.
Early notions were similar to today's cloud computing, drawing an analogy to utilities like power, water, and gas – a service for everyone, not just for a privileged few.
John McCarthy's vision in the 1950s, seeing air defense graphics terminals, led him to believe "every home will have one of these."
The "Intergalactic Network" Vision
The internet, before its invention, was optimistically termed the "intergalactic network," reflecting a desire for a truly worldwide system, exceeding minimal expectations.
Moore's Law: Prediction and Unintended Consequences
Gordon Moore's 1965 prediction (Moore's Law) projected an exponential improvement in computing power (doubling every 1-2 years).
This prediction, though requiring engineering faith and funding, gave researchers a concrete timeline for future computing capabilities.
Alan Kay expresses a fervent hope that Moore's Law wouldn't extend much beyond 1995.
Enabling television simulation and its negative societal impact: The concern was that by reaching a certain computational power, computers could simulate television, which was seen as detrimental due to its commercialized nature and pervasive influence.
Alan Kay recounts warning UK friends about commercial television's negative impact, which was dismissed.
McLuhan's insight on advertising and human behavior: McLuhan suggested that advertising people, not psychologists, truly study human beings and how media shapes behavior. Reality TV, for instance, learned to exploit "bad behavior" for profit, and its ubiquity changed the environment, leading to people accommodating and normalizing such content.
Computing represents an ultimate "double-edged sword," capable of amplifying good or bad, akin to the printing press being used for works of genius or propaganda like "Mein Kampf."
Wisdom vs. Intelligence in AI and System Design [46:02]
Misunderstanding of AI (AGI vs. narrow AI)
Alan Kay points out that the modern use of "AI" often differs significantly from its original meaning in the 1960s, which referred to Artificial General Intelligence (AGI).
Academics "colonized" the term, applying it to limited subsets to make research seem more significant.
This is compared to renaming arithmetic "mathematics" in education or "designer genes" – a branding issue, not necessarily a fundamental change.
Marvin Minsky's Military Robot Story
Alan recounts a 1960s visit to MIT where army generals asked Marvin Minsky about "robot soldiers" and "intelligent tanks."
Minsky suggested they might develop a "robot dog" in a few years, but one general stated they didn't need "ordinary human intelligence" (they could draft soldiers), but rather "superhuman intelligence."
Alan's immediate thought was about safety, emphasizing that system safety must be inherent from the start, not "bolted on" later.
The Danger of Scaling Fallibility
The current computing landscape (Web-based) has a different culture than early internet and personal computing, failing to grasp the necessity of building safety into systems from the ground up.
What society doesn't need is AI that mimics and magnifies the fallibility and "garbage" output of human beings, especially with the industrial revolution's power behind it.
Wisdom, not intelligence, is the operative word: It is better to focus on wisdom in computing systems.
Alan Kay highlights that wisdom, not just intelligence, is the crucial factor for beneficial computing and AI systems.
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Wisdom: A Non-Universal, Hard-to-Scale Trait
Wisdom is inherently difficult to scale because it often goes against human genetic instincts, which are evolved for scarcity and danger, leading to cognitive biases and neuroses.
Humility and thoughtful constraints: Anjan Katta believes the first lesson of wisdom is humility, and for computing, this means focusing on smaller, governable areas before attempting to tackle everything.
Analogy of Ulysses and the Sirens: By creating a separate, constrained device like Daylight, users can "tie themselves to the mast" to avoid distractions and addictive "junk food" content, making wiser choices easier.
"Hard fun" and the "nutshell" concept: Alan Kay refers to Seymour Papert's "hard fun," which implies engaging with challenging but ultimately rewarding activities. He also mentions Hamlet's line about being "confined in a nutshell and count myself king of infinite space," suggesting that limitations can lead to deeper, more focused engagement.
Daylight Computer: A Second Shot at Computing [54:19]
Focus on Reading, Writing, Thinking
Daylight's initial focus is on a specific subset of computing: writing, reading, note-taking, and thinking – a "magical piece of paper" concept. The aim is to slowly expand from this core.
Hardware as Foundation, Software as the Core (5% vs. 95%)
Anjan spent six years developing Daylight's novel hardware, viewing it as "removing the rubble and rocks and weeds" and "tilling the soil" – creating the essential underlying substrate.
He sees the hardware as only 5% of the project, with the operating system and underlying software representing 95% of the effort and vision.
The true "pathway" and "idealism" of the project come from the software, not just the physical device.
Importance of Haptics and User Interface Design
Alan Kay highlights the importance of "tooth" or tactile feedback in writing devices (like moleskin notebooks) for a satisfying experience.
Early Xerox PARC experiments found that the "intimacy" of a graphical user interface came from the ability to drag things, not just clicking, suggesting the importance of haptic feedback.
Apple's unreleased mice that simulated "mass" when dragging folders are an example of this lost potential.
Modern mobile interfaces often sacrifice two-handed use and haptics for simplicity, catering to a market that doesn't prioritize learning.
This focus on "easy-to-use" without a learning curve is a "big drag" on a true computer revolution.
Avoiding the "Bumbling" of Past Media Revolutions
Researchers at Xerox PARC aimed to avoid the 200-year "bumbling" period between the printing press and the 17th-century intellectual revolution, hoping to "get it right the first time" with personal computing.
They invested heavily in advanced hardware (supercomputers for individuals) in the 1970s to develop software for the future (1980s affordable machines), acknowledging the difficulty of software and user interface design.
However, Alan notes the irony that society has fallen into another 200-year cycle of "bumbling" with digital media.
The intellectual revolutions hoped for in the 1960s have not occurred, leaving humanity ill-equipped for major challenges like climate change, which has been known publicly since 1963 but still isn't taken seriously.
The "disasters" are now much more short-term, making the need for different thinking "beyond urgent."
Societal Resistance to Complex Thinking
The general public's reliance on "common sense" and local situations, rooted in paleolithic thinking, hinders their ability to grasp complex systems, scaling, and the true power of modern technologies.
Examples like Brexit and current US political sentiments demonstrate a failure to understand systemic issues, leading to decisions based on protest rather than comprehensive understanding.
Devaluing Trusted Sources and Confirmation Bias
When trusted sources of knowledge are devalued (e.g., through misinformation on the internet), people revert to relying solely on how they feel.
While feelings are important, they don't suffice for dealing with complex systems.
Confirmation bias, the human tendency to favor information that confirms existing beliefs, exacerbates this problem.
Final Meditations: Inventing a Better Future [01:11:57]
Human Nature: Reshaping Reality
Humans, more than any other species, actively reshape nature and create tools, housing, clothing, and medicine to overcome natural limitations. This fundamental premise must be included in any theory of the future.
Sometimes this "overshoot" leads to unintended consequences and harm to nature due to a lack of wisdom.
Importance of Multiple Perspectives (Books)
Alan Kay would not recommend just one book but many, including "bad" or provocative ones, because wisdom arises from diverse perspectives.
He highlights Julian Jaynes's "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" as a highly provocative book that sparks deep conversations, even if its premises aren't entirely factual.
Learning How to Learn
Referencing 19th-century "McGuffey Readers," Alan emphasizes that the primary aim of reading education was not just literacy, but teaching children "how to learn from reading English" – a meta-skill for putting together complex thoughts from various sources.
While valuing individual instincts, Alan cautions against pure anarchism, arguing that fundamental "hard inventions" (like mathematics or scientific methods) are cultural achievements that children should be helped to "reinvent," not discover from scratch.
"The best way to predict the future is to invent it."
This famous slogan by Alan Kay is double-edged: if people in power are "inventing a bad future" (predicting badly), the outcome will be negative.
The critical element for a positive future is the adoption of "new thinking" to deal with the human dilemma, especially complex systems, which computers could facilitate.
Understanding Scaling and Minimalism
The conversation concludes with the vital importance of understanding "scaling" and the value of "minimalism" before accumulating an overwhelming array of tools.
Blindly using large libraries or tools without critical thought (e.g., asking "am I working on the right problem?") can be detrimental.
